Friday, July 17, 2009
The Reasoning behind the name
Hey Guys This is Sammy J, as you guys have seen the name me and my team membors go by is 1 Timothy 4:12. We wanted to chose a name that would fit all of us, somthing we all have in commin. The group of administrators i have grouped together are from all different places, around this area of the states. For those of you who don't know, atleast 6 of us are from Pennsylvania. Two of us are from Ohio and two from West Verginia. So the next Question is, if we are all from different states how do we know eachother? The answer is a simple one. We all go to camp together! There are 2 different camps hoasted by one church that invites other churches from all around the place every year. Supper Summer Break (otherwise known as S.S.B.) and Snow Camp. There are four main churchs that always attend. St. Johns Burrys Church, Fairview Reformed Church, Pilgram Pres. Church, and Cornerstone Pres. Church. thease are the churchs from which we all attend. When we started thinking of a name we were boggled. we needed a name that fit all of us, But the only thing we had in commin was the camps we go to and our religion. None of the names dealing with camp sounded right so we went to the bible to look up some verses. a very well known verse is 1 Timothy 4:12. it states: Dont let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believersin speech, in life, in love, in faith, and in purity. The verse was chose because it fit our discription well. our goal with this blog is to evangilize and spread the word. and you can help us do that! we appriciate your help! and thenks for listening guys! untill next time---Sammy J
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So, how does this all work?
ReplyDeleteWhat's the degree to which all of you believe in the bible. Do you believe everything literally? Which parts are subject to being called metaphors, and which aren't, and who decides this? Is the bible the word of God? Is it infallible? Do you believe in the talking snake and the 900 year old man who lived inside of a giant fish, or the crowd of infested pigs running down a hill into the sea? It would be nice to know what your definition of God is... whether you believe in original sin. Whether you believe that the earth is round or flat as it says in the bible. Whether you think that being a Christian is the ONLY way to heave, or whether you even believe heaven and hell exist, and if so, where is heaven? Where is hell... and I would like to know if any of you believe that God speaks to them directly, and if the answer is yes... then I would like to know what magical powers you possess that would allow you to know this infinitely complex creator's mind, when I, and many others cannot.
ReplyDeleteSammyJ
ReplyDeleteok lets work this one Question at a time. to what extanet to we beleave in the bible to the fullest extent.Im leaving for N.C. now so hopefully another administrator will take over your Questions from here. Thanks!
I'll break it down:
ReplyDelete1. To what extent do you believe in the bible, in other words, are you a fundamentalist? And if not... why not, and what gives you the warrant to decide whether certain parts of the bible should be taken literally or not.
2. What is your definition of God?
3. Don't quote me scripture as evidence, it's not evidence because it assumes that God exists in the first place.
4. Is this debate going to focus on the value or morality/immorality of christianity and the truth or falsehood of it's claims? Or is it going to focus on merely the existence of God? Maybe we should tackle one before the other.
5. Is everyone who is not a Christian going to hell?
Hello my name is Charlie and I am a new administrator.
ReplyDeleteOk, first of all, this discussion is going to focus on God and His plan for the world. The "morality" or "value" of the Christian faith is useless without God. If He's not real, we are completely wasting our time. Second, if your looking for total concrete facts that absolutely prove or disprove God just stop now. The fact is He is not of this world, He is spirit not body; He can't be measured and proved like gravity since by definition He's not part of the physical world. You can't prove something that isn't part of the physical world by physical means. The fact is you have to take somethings on faith, not totally though, it's not a blind leap; His works are evident in His creation, He sent His son (Jesus) to die on the cross for our sins, and He has given us His word in the Bible. None of these things are absolutely 100% provable, but like I said the point isn't to prove God exists. The point is to develope a relationship with God, not 100% prove He exists. Because of sin however, we cannot have a relationship with a perfectly holy and just God, that is where Jesus comes in. I don't know why God let the world fall into sin, I don't know why He lets horrible things keep happing everywhere everyday, I don't know why He let's Himself suffer by lettig this world go on as it is(as a perfect holy being sin grieves Him even more than us), but I do what He has done about it; He suffered along with us, and sent His only Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for our sins and to give us His righteousness so that we can have a relationship with God. I know that He has already conquered sin, suffering, and death as shown by Jesus's ressurection, and that He will return to end all sin and death. Not that everyone will be saved; in answer to #5, yes. It's a horrible reality, but if you will not accept Christ's offer to take your sin away and be clothed in His righteousness, you will not be able to stand in God's presence.
Anyway, it's late and I'm tired so that's all for now, but I'll be back if you want me to keep going. Feel free to ask any questions as I'm pretty sure I've said some stuff that will prove foreign to you if you've never really had exposure to Christianity and it doesn't help that I'm a horrible communicator. Again though, try not to look at it from the point of absolutely, concretely proving God, because you won't get anywhere.
Charlie,
ReplyDeleteMy point is that you are wasting your time. We can't have this argument assuming that this God even exists in the first place, as there is no evidence of that other than one book. It is unfair, and frankly ridiculous to say that this God is so mysterious and so ineffable that we can't even prove his existence. This gives us no place to start, and we can't argue about something that is supposed to be accepted without evidence and just taken on "faith"... I could make that very same argument about the invisible flying spaghetti monster and say that it can't be defined or proven because of this and that, it's useless to do so. Evidence of the world, and trees and grass and our existence is in NO way evidence of a God. It is only evidence that we are here... you can't just assume that since we're here, that ANY God, much less YOUR God exists. You are already assuming that the bible is true. What if one were to assume that the Q'oran was true? What then? What about the greek Gods? How do you know that all of this isn't evidence of them? That's no argument at all. To say that the he reveals himself through nature and the bible can be said about ANYTHING else... I can say the ghost of the cookie monster reveals himself through nature, all I need to do is find an old book that says it in it. Is this really the only "proof" you have? There is no evidence of the resurection of Jesus. Say that he even existed in the first place, and he did die on the cross and his body was gone one day, what's more likely, that someone stole it, or that he floated up to the magical place called heaven? If the grave of a loved one of yours was gone one day when YOU went to visit Timothy, then you would assume someone dug it up and stole it, not that it was some divine miracle.
The last thing you said was a euphemism for "yes, you're going to hell if you don't believe". This is a cruel, wicked, and evil thing to say. To say that "I have a meek and mild savior for you, and if you don't like it, you can go to hell for eternity"... this is no God worthy of any praise, and it makes me very happy that there is no evidence for it, that these claims are so provably false and so ridiculous that they couldn't possibly be true. If your bedtime stories were replaced with the stories of the bible, you would believe THOSE to be true... when someone is put in a situation of fear, where they think they HAVE to believe or else they're going to hell, well that shows me that the christians have no logical or sound arguments for any of their ridiculous claims (such as the earth being flat, and 6 thousand years old, and 2 people named adam and eve formed from dirt/dust who MUST have had sex with their children, or their children had sex with each other, promoting disgusting incest).
Would a loving and caring God who is so mighty and powerful REALLY want you to praise him all day? This is the desire to live as a slave, to live under a dictatorship, this is not free will... this is "do what I say, live like I want, or you can burn forever"... this is evil, immoral, and it would be like living in North Korea, or Saddam Hussen's Iraq. At least you can die in Iraq or North Korea.
*There were a lot of points I touched on, I know. I'll try to be more brief so we can go back and forth point by point next time, as I do realize that it's probably difficult to scroll back up to answer each question.
Charlie-
ReplyDeleteYeah after I wrote my part, I realized "Whoa... that was alot longer than I thought..."
I can see your problem with Christianity now, faith. I did not, however, say that because you can't prove God exists totally that He must be real, that was your assumption about my beliefs. You seem to think that our faith is all just assumptions based on one unrealiable crazy (in your opinion) old book. The evidense for the Bible's validity is its historical accuracy, uniformity through many authors over a long period of time, power to change people's lives, and the evidense of the Holy Spirit's testimony. Also, the creation does shows God's handiwork. You can see evidense of God in the way He has wonderfully designed the world. Also, there is proof for the resurrection of Christ. I'm gonna use a link here, and I know it's long but I read it all so I can say I agree with it, though I had nothing to do at all with it's being written.
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html
Evidense alone, even if God announced to the whole world His existence through a direct voice, will not save anyone. In our fallen state we hate Gd, we will never come to Him, only if the God reaches out for us and takes our sin through Christ and gives us His righteousness will you be saved. Unless the Holy Spirit (How much do you know of the doctrine of the Trinity by the way?) transforms your heart, you will not accept God no matter what. We still have free will as humans though; God did not make robots, but sentient beings. You make your own choices in your life, you can't blame God for your sin, but He is still in control and His will will be accomplished on this earth.
Anyway, it's time to tell us what your view on the world, it's beginning, our purpose here, etc. I understand your skeptisism with Christianity, just because I believe in God doesn't mean I don't have doubts, doubt is a part of faith (if you're too afriad to look into your beliefs and their issues you don't really trust them to be true). However, we'll see how much faith you are really using yourself in your worldview, and how you justify your beliefs. Maybe then you won't have such an issue with not being able to fully know everything.
I'm sorry, I wrote even more this time. Oh well...
Feel free to try and blast and smash my beliefs later, but for the next section let's just view your own beliefs about the world for the interset of keeping it shorter.
Okay. My views on the world are simple, show me a little proof, and I'm in. Don't show me any proof, and I'm not in. The bible has more than 40 different authors. It contradicts itself time after time, this can be proven and shown very easily. Love one another on one page, and then stone and kill the gays on another page. I am a secular humanist. Human life has value, all life has value. The world exists just the way that it would if there were NO God. It's cruel, and harsh. Things happen for no apparent reason than bad luck... good things happen for no reason than good luck, we do not need to call these things miracles.
ReplyDeleteEvolution by natural selection. This is called a theory simply because it is not a finished body of work. It is accepted as fact to the same extent that "germ theory" is. I hope you don't deny the existence of germs. Over Billions of years, through natural selection, humans came about from a natural process of trial and error. People used to breed horses, and make them thoroughbreads so that they possess the best qualities for strength. Darwin came along and asked, I wonder if nature does that? And hence the Orgin of Species was born. We as a species came from smaller, less complex life forms. The idea of an almighty ultimately complex being as the first thing to exist is no longer necessary. God was what we used to fill in the gap when we knew nothing about the world. There is no "higher power" beyond us. We live on an average planet in a tiny galaxy in a dark corner of space. 98.9% of the living species have died out on. All other planets are dead, what are they for? You have to make that fit in with your idea of this God. We as humans can only live in certain parts of even the earth, and you think that this was created for us? To glorify the person who put us here and made us sinful? To serve and repent and wallow in our unworthiness? This is no way to live my friend. It is not reality, and I'm glad it isn't.
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ReplyDeleteCharlie-
ReplyDeleteI promise to be short lol. One point, you are using alot of faith in your worldview. Big bang, let's think about this logically. OK, tiny ball of matter, it explodes, and "POW" the universe. Where my friend did the tiny ball come from in the first place? You can't know because you or anyone couldn't possibly have observed it. There is no peer review or scientific method. Unless you "assume" that the tiny ball is just eternal you can't explain it. Evolution: doesn't work. Any missing links discovered? There's also this scientific term called irreducible complexity. Here's another link cause I don't wanna write so much to explain it.
http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/irreducible-complexity.htm
Let me know what you think.
Charlie
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be someone who has never read the opposition's view on what goes on. It's quite annoying and trying that after I went to great lengths to show you that none of this has faith involved, you still want to make it that way. This was your plan from the beginning, you wanted to paint my views being just as faith based as yours. They are not. A ball of matter goes bang and then the universe? I'll have to be frank with you, you don't have the slightest idea of what you're talking about. I suggest you wikipedia the big bang and find out what really is. It's no wonder you don't believe it when you've been told lies about what it is. I've read the bible, and know a considerable amount about what's in it, and that is precisely the reason I'm an Atheist.
The article on irreducible complexity had so many falsehoods that I have no idea to begin, most of them were very apparent right away. You want to dismiss the big bang because "something must have come before it" yet you fail to answer where God came from? You think something as complex as your God came from nothing? Out of nowhere? You can't have it both ways. If the universe and it's natural laws had to have a creator, then so did God. If God didn't have to have one... then neither did the Universe, it's the most basic form of logic.
The missing link was just discovered actually, it's nickname is ida. I suggest you look that up as well. It made the top story on CNN for the week. The fact is, If you had evidence, whether historical or otherwise, then you wouldn't have to call it faith.
Evolution doesn't work? So you think that every scientific community in the world is wrong, but the bible is right?
* I was as brief as I could be, I had to take a TON out of what I originally written here. I'll save the other stuff I wanted to write for later. I also omitted some things I had written, because, frankly they weren't very nice lol. We'll stay civil.
Looking forward to hearing from you. I read your article, here's one for you: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/there-is-no-god-and-you-k_b_8459.html
Give the whole thing a read, and try to have an open mind.
Charlie-
ReplyDeletePlease don't be offended, I mean no offense. I was simply disagreeing with your points and refuting your views, as you have been doing this whole time with my views I might add. Yes, there is more to the big bang theory but for time and space I just used a super-simplified verizon. You still haven't told me how to explain the origin of the first matter by the way. God is eternal, and He is not of universe nor is he bound by the same principles as it, that's my explanation. God made the laws of the universe, so logically He had to exist outside of them, beyond them and without them. Yes, I believe many (not all agree evolution is true) scientists are wrong, what is so amazing about that? Scientists used to believe in ether and spontaneous generation you know. Yes I believe the Bible is true for the reasons I've already stated. One "possible" missing link after all this time? Sorry, but that's not very convincing.
It's late and I'm gonna go to bed so I'll read your article (I wanna do it justice and I won't at this time of night lol) if you wanna wait for me to read them before you reply. By the way, tell me some of the holes in irreducible complexity in your next reply, I want to hear them.
lol nevermind, I'm too curious and went ahead and read it anyway. He starts out (after the intro about the girl) by basically saying atheism is not a worldview, it's just logically right. That's pretty arogant and closed-minded. Atheism is most definitely a worldview which shapes your view of the everything that happens around you. Even if it was totally logically right, that doesn't make it not a worldview! The whole point is to try and make your worldview as close to reality as possible! After that His basic problem with religion is all the suffering in the world, which I dealt with in my first reply, but not in much detail. We can discuss that in detail next if you like.
ReplyDeleteHey, I think you and I are gonna go nuts and end up being angry if we keep going back and forth like this, so I propose that after you say your next piece (you can have the last word), we take a short break and discuss something fun and light for just a bit before we go on. All work and no play makes jack a dull boy, and we might as well get to know each other a little better if we're gonna keep going like this. You seem to be interested science, so perhaps some sort of new scientific discovery (that doesn't have anything to do with origins)? Food? Sports? Music? Something else? If you aren't interested in this slight break and just wanna plow ahead that's fine too.
ReplyDeleteAtheism: The lack of belief in God or Gods.
ReplyDeleteThat's it. There's nothing arrogant about it. It's very obvious, and that's what he was saying... i've encountered the argument that atheists are arrogant or overzealous when saying something. It's not a worldview Charlie, it's just the lack of belief in something that requires faith, and has no evidence. It doesn't describe a worldview... an atheist can reject science in all it's forms and still be an atheist if he lacks belief in God. I think you've got a misunderstanding of what Atheism is, which I can understand why because I used to have the same misunderstanding, which was why I didn't like to refer to myself as an Atheist... but now I know what it is. Secular Humanism is a worldview, one that I happen to advocate. Ida isn't a possible missing link, it is. Scientists, any of them that are refutable believe in evolution... even the pope has admitted that it's true, even Francis Collins who discovered the human genome, who believes in God has conceded that evolution is fact. Logically something cannot exist outside of space and time, it cannot exist. For you to say that is to go outside of the realm of human understanding, this is playing with fire in an argument. It's pretty much a cop out to get out of explaining how God could always just exist. You haven't answered how God can possibly just always exist in any form, yet you demand an explanation for where the matter in the big bang came from.
"Those people who leap from personal bafflement at a natural phenomenon straight to a hasty invocation of the supernatural are no better than the fools who see a conjuror bending a spoon and leap to the conclusion that it is 'paranormal'."
- Oxford Professor of Science Richard Dawkins
Our eye is a perfect example... Hippo's have much better eyesight than us. We have better eyesight than other mammals. We have blind spots because or retinas are pointed backwards (some design)... the eye is reducibly complex. It can still function with one part not working properly. A bird needs three things to fly... the right angle, the right wing shape, and the right pressure. Many have different shaped wings... there are bugs and species that cannot fly because they have half of a wing, they haven't yet evolved to do that. You have to make that fit in with your idea of God. If you need further explanation, i'd be happy to key you in.
The suffering in the world proves that there is no LOVING personal interveining God. Think if there was no God? Try to imagine it... this would be the way the would would be if there wasn't... it's unfair and cruel and bad things happen to good people because of bad luck. There is no God necessary to explain anything, the idea of God came from the infantile era of our species where we didn't know where lightning came from, so we called it zeus, we didn't know why the sun came up, so we called it Saturn, and we didn't know about evolution or the big bang, so we called it God (the judeo-christian god). It's not necessary to explain anything anymore. Evolution teaches us that. I don't think you addressed the problem with suffering though.
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ReplyDeletePolitics, the only thing that people gets more fired up about and vicious discussing it is religion... lol figures that's what you and I are talking about. Anyway, as for my tastes in music I listen to country the most, rock and oldies second, and a smattering everything else. I like switchfoot too, never heard them in person though. Incubus's song Aqueous Transmission from their album Morning View (only cd of theirs I have) is probably one of my favorites songs just cause it's so relaxing lol. Why were you at a Christian music festival by the way? You seem pretty adament that Christians are foolish, self-deluded idiots. Do you just like the music, is your girl friend a christian, or something else? This isn't part of our discussion, I'm just curious.
ReplyDeleteI am very interested in science, especially chemistry. I play soccer, volleyball, and basketball, though I like soccer best. What could be better than running around kicking someting? I'm 18, with one more year of highschool (I started a year late). Well, we'll resume tomorrow, but this time I think we should impose (really this time lol) a one point limit per response. Let's discuss rather than take turns spilling waves of information at each other. Well, til next time, adieu!
NO. I don't think that everyone who is a Christian is stupid. If you think that God has spoken to you, or that Jesus does, that's no different than a skitzophrenic person claiming to hear voices in their head that aren't there. It's a delusion. I do not think that most Christians actually hear this voice though, I never did, and no one I know has ever claimed to actually hear or see anything directly. Delusional about one aspect of life, and stupid are completely separable. I do think that less intelligent people are more susceptible to being more devout. The so called 'bible belt' in the South, Georgia, Texas, Missisippi, Alabama etc. has the lowest rate of literacy and IQ levels and has the largest church attendance, the most evangelicals, and the most devout religious people... in God they trust? Apparently he didn't see fit bless them with intellect or literacy. It is easier for people of lesser intelligence to identify with because it eliminates the need to think for yourself... you have a book that tells you how to live and gives you all of the answers. No inquiry or science or discovery is necessary because "God did this".
ReplyDeleteYou, and your friends I assume aren't in this category of people that are devout because you aren't intelligent. I've outlined some of the reasons why I think you believe, but I don't want to speak for you, so in your next response maybe you can fill me in on why you believe, and some of the things you see as benefits of being a Christian. But I want to make that clear that you aren't being lumped in with the "stupid" crowd, it would be ignorant and bigoted to say that everyone of any group stupid.
Realize that to an Atheist, when someone speaks of God or Jesus loving us, it's no different than someone saying "the invisible flying spaghetti monster tells us so, so we must love each other", or "the cookie monster, you should pray to him" or a caveman worshipping a rock. This isn't meant to be mean or rude, it's just so you know what it looks and sounds like to Atheists when you talk about a supernatural being that sacrificed it's son for us unworthy sinners and will come back to save us one day. They scare you by saying that the devil is alluring you, it's all to get you to stop using your mind to think. "God is testing you", "Only a fool doesn't believe", "It's the devil!"... all scare tactics. I asked myself... why do I believe? What happened to my prayers that WEREN'T answered? This proved to me that it's all chance, that there's no God pulling the strings, when it came to prayer. That's not the only reason I disbelieve though.
I went to the festival because even though I argue against Christianity, and think that yes, it is a delusion... I still can appreciate people for who they are beyond their beliefs. I don't hate Christians. I do enjoy bashing religion for it's falsehoods, and I really don't like the whole "you can go to hell if you don't believe in it" thing. That's why I'm hostile to this view. I'm glad to know that there isn't a rag of truth to it.
Side note: A point we both probably can agree on: Radical Islam must be stopped.
That is the last long rant, I swear to God. How about you ask me a question about my beliefs, or in this case, non-belief... or ask me to justify something i've said or a view that I have, and i'll answer it to the best of my ability, and you can refute what I say, and so on until we call it quits on that question and move on to the next, that'll be easier. I'll let you have the first question, and i'll be as brief as possible in my answer.
Alrighty, yes I agree this will be much more efficient and worth while. Though the temptation to rant about what you said about the south is overwhelming. Just please reconsider before you say something so condescending and shallow again. We are not responsible for your safety if anyone from Dixie reads this blog by the way.
ReplyDeleteMy question for you is, who is Jesus?
Lol, my identity on here is fairly ambiguous... I'm not afraid for my life.
ReplyDeleteI do stand by what I said about the South. What I said about the South were facts... not blind assertions.
The answer to your question: Jesus is a myth. If jesus DID exist, which is unlikely, but IF he did... then he was a raving lunatic, a fraudster, and a charleton. He was either a pathological liar, or he suffered from severe Schizophrenia , and was a highly immoral and wicked human being who was no son of a divine being.
My question: How is it you only believe in supernatural and far-fetched claims when they happen to be part of the Christian dogma, but deny every other God out there (a requisite for being a christian), and every other supernatural claim made by other religions?
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ReplyDeletePlease don't take offense. The only thing I mean to say is this.. it's easier for those people to accept these views because they are easier to understand, and they accept what they've been told their whole lives. It's not reflective of the Christian population as a whole.
ReplyDeleteSorry I've been having internet issues, so I couldn't get on last last night. What did you remove and why am I supposed to be offended? Actually, if you think it'll be an issue, leave it go, and we'll move on. No harm done. Thank you for caring enough to not want to offend me though.
ReplyDeleteAlright back to business while my internet is still up...
The answer to your question is actually my refute of what you answered to my question; Jesus. There is very little "if" to the historical fact of a man called Jesus of Nazereth. Official historical recordings of a J ewish historian from Jesus time, Josephus, and of a roman historian (I forget his name, sorry) both mention a man called Jesus of Nazereth as being crucified. Unless you want to question all historical documents from the time of the romans as false, then it's pretty hard to say Jesus was probably a myth. There's other evidense too like the apostles testimony, you think they just made this whole hoax completely out of thin air and were willing to die for it? And you forgot one option as to His identity; He was a liar, a crazy man, or He was telling the truth. If He's a liar, why all the miracles and all the wise, moral, and useful teachings? If He's crazy, same issues, and how could he refute the jewish religous leaders of the day with logical arguments? The only option left and the reason why Christianity is different from all the other religions is Christ was who He said He was. If He was right then He said He was the only way to God, so for that part to not be true all of what He said had to be un-true. I believe Christ was real and who He said He was, that is where all of my beliefs have their root.
Do you want me to ask you another question or stick with this for now?
The apostles testimony was a myth as well. The story of Jesus was stolen and plaigiarised a from egyptian myths, such as the Sun God Horas, among other things. Many stories during that time going around the Medditerranean had human gods that were predicted by a star in the east, born of a virgin, and born on dec. 25th (not jesus's real birthday). There is literally no more "historical" evidence for the existence of Jesus than any other religious claim. You cited a jew, and as you know, jews don't think jesus was the son of God... so say a man named jesus was crucified, it means nothing, many people were crucified at that time in history. This says nothing of Jesus's divinity or anything else. There is zero evidence for that, and this does not show how your supernatural claims about the divinity of jesus differ from an islamic belief in allah and muhammad, they have the same flimsy "historical" evidence for their claims. It was stolen from pagan myths. The first believers in Jesus maintained he was an ethereal spirit, much like other sky/sun-gods. It wasn't until later that he acquired a human death, a human life and finally a human birth. The 'Jesus Christ' character the transition from– god, man, king, carpenter, conqueror, peace-maker, dispenser of justice, advocate of love, was propelled to try to unify a fragment religious movement.
ReplyDeleteYou can reply to this if you want, if you don't have a whole lot more to say, and you think that we won't get anywhere on this point, then yeah, it's your turn.
*I took it out because you haven't been rude, condescending, or offensive... so I didn't want to make this personal by continuing to debate whether religious people are less intelligent or not.
Don't mind me, I'm just a Godless Heathen.
By the way, Aqueous Transmission is awesome... definitely one of their best songs.
ReplyDeleteHaha yes! My favorite part is the part with the frogs at the end of the song.
ReplyDeleteThe Apostle's testimony is just a completely un-based hoax? A ragtag group of regular people who had no previous connections (all of them undoubtly those type of people who you would call the uneducated, unintelligent religous type) just got together and made up a story that went against the dominate culture of the day, greek (no ressurrection of the dead in greek culture at all), their own society's beliefs concerning the Christ, or Messiah (the Jews thought he would be an earthly king, not someone who would die for their sins), they managed to fool so many people with absolutely no proof, and then they were willing to suffer and die for their made-up story?
The Jewish historian doesn't prove Jesus diety, merely that He existed, that He's not just an "if" as you said. Josephus also mentions the early Christians. Their were already people following Jesus right after His death, who knew that He was real. The part about Christians making up Jesus manhood and diety is the part that was made up.
I looked up Horus, and yes if you take some people's word as true it's incredibly like Jesus's story, however, many of the points are very disputed and other sources claim that the other side is just making things up about and twisting Horus's story. It seems to me there are a few minor, non-earth shattering, similarities between the stories, but it seems that most of the controversial stuff has been added or twisted by people in order to make the similarities greater. Especially since these facts about Horus story weren't really discussed until about the 19th and 20th centuries. You'd think this would have come up right at the beginning of Christianity's spread, not about 2000 years in.
Thank you again for not wanting to "make this personal," though I gladly would discuss that issue. I am not offended at all by the statement that religous people are less intelligent, because a) it's not true. and b) I don't consider intelligence to be the most important factor in a person. Don't worry about offending me, (the South thing messed me up a little, but it's cause I like the South and the people from there, not because I was offended personally), so long as you're not just attacking me personally but trying to question my beliefs in general I will not get offended. I believe you should be willing to question your own beliefs, or you really don't believe them anyway.
Oh dear... Sorry, I went overboard with the writing again. Want a new question or keep going with this?
Yes. The entire story of the apostles was part of the entire legend. As for suffering, I do not think the apostles did, that was merely an embellished part of the story added in later, just like the Dec. 25th birthday. You really think that the only son of God went around in an illiterate part of bronze-age palestine to spread his word? It didn't get to China until roughly a thousand years later. Mystifying illiterate peasants with sorcery and magic was the way to bring light to the world? Cursing a crowd of pigs with the sin that originally was in the inhabitants of said village so that they were no longer wicked? The evidence for Jesus's existence is flimsy at best, one jew writing on it... as well as the apostles, which were PART of the entire Jesus myth, there is no evidence for them other than the bible, no real historical text that shows 12 men followed around a bearded wizard in sandles named Jesus. The Jesus story is an old one, taken from pagan myths. It's easy to find by google search. Judas and Herod were the only two that the bible specifically says were put to death anyway, and the bible is the only book that claims the existence of such things, but how are we to trust a book that tells us to stone our gay friends? Our non believing friends, and believe in talking animals and burning bushes and 900 year old men living inside whales (Noah's Ark).
ReplyDeleteIf you want to reply again, be my guest. But it's your turn to ask a question...
I think we'll move on, I could reply again, but you'll just deny everything I say and vice a versa. You will deny Christ til you're blue in the face, cause you're convinced He's a not real, and His existence will destroy your worldview; and I'll defend Him til I'm blue in the face cause I'm convinced that He is real, He is the key to my worldview.
ReplyDeleteNext question: What are your morales and what do you base them on? Do they work for everyone else or just you?
No. I'm not dogmatic, I'm all about truth and there is no evidence that even IF jesus existed that he was the son of some supernatural God, so I don't deny it for it's own sake, I deny it because it's both false and ridiculous. You want desperately for jesus to be real and the son of God and for him to come back someday because you are afraid of the fact that someday you will die, and you are afraid of going to hell if you don't believe it. The evidence is all the other way.
ReplyDeleteMy morals are this: Do whatever causes the least amount of harm. My morals are not cut-dry. Like the moral not to lie... well if your girlfriend asks you if she looks okay today, don't tell her she looks like crap even if she does! tell her yeah, you look okay... because it causes the least amount of harm. Morality is innate, human beings don't need the threat of hell or a supernatural creator to figure out that we don't need to kill each other. Funny that the ten commandments say not to cheat on your wife but say nothing about rape, torture, or child abuse... yet cheating on your wife is one of the most important things these fools put into the bible?
Left to themselves, good people will try to do good, evil people will do wicked things, but to get a good person to do a wicked thing... that takes religion. I can point to Timothy McVeigh, The unibomber, the 9/11 hijackers, the crusades, the spanish inquisition... female genital mutilation, I can go on and on... so you have the work all ahead of you more and more when you make the claim that our morals come from a wicked book, or a wicked deity such as the God of the bible. I base them on what feels right, we have an inner feeling that when we do bad things we know it... so if you do what you know is right, which is innate, then you are being moral. Our morals do not rely on some arbitrary dictator telling us what we can and can't do with our lives, who I should despise, what food I can eat, who I can sleep with and in what position. I don't need any sickly advice from Nazereth to live a good and moral life. Our morals don't involve the threat of eternal torture. This sums it up, this man was an evangelical minister for 25 years, and after a long hard struggle saw through all of the nonsense of christian beliefs and is now an Atheist, his book is called losing faith in faith... but here it is:
"I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being."
- Dan barker, former evangelical minister
And yes, my morals work for everyone, as long as people TRY to do the least amount of harm possible, then that is the best we can ask for. I'll wait for your response before I ask you another question. Well, you know what... if you don't have a response then here's the question: What is the evidence for the existence of God?
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ReplyDeleteSigh* I knew you'd add that little disclaimer at the beginning of your response. My friend, as I see it, the evidense all points the other way, and I could just as easily say you are the one who is desparately denying God because you don't want to have to listen to an omnipotent, omnipresent God. See? We are both convinced by everything we know that we are right, and it will difficult to change anyone's mind in this setting. That was my point, not that we're both just desparately defending our beliefs for no good reason.
ReplyDeleteWell, you spent far more time trying to attack other people's than actually just describing your own morals, but I'm not gonna deal with your attacks now because that wasn't the issue. Your problem is you base your morals on what "feels right," but what about people who it "feels right" to do wrong things? "Feels right" varies from person to person, even drastically. How do you know in the first place if something is right if it just feels right? You claim to base everything else on reason, why throw that overboard now?
"we have an inner feeling that when we do bad things we know it"
I agree it's called a conscious, where did it come from? Did we evolve a sense of morality? How's come other cultures, and even those in our own culture, have different ones then? And if they're are different ones, how do you decide who's right? How do you know anyone's concious is right in the first place?
"And yes, my morals work for everyone, as long as people TRY to do the least amount of harm possible, then that is the best we can ask for."
Key word is TRY, because people won't. People are inherently "bad", you dont have to teach a little kid to lie, be selfish, etc. How do decide that causing harm is the problem in the first place? How do you know hurting others is bad? Just because, or "it feels wrong" are rather unitellectual responses from the man who claims to base everything on reason and evidense.
Pleae don't just attack other people's sense of morality now, the issue now is your own, so attacking others as your response will not prove anything. Try to keep it to your own reasons for what you believe is right and wrong, we can dicuss others in another question if you like.
After you respond I think we should take another "break" and discuss something light for a day. What do you wanna talk about if you want to do that as well?
No. Our world-views couldn't be more different. I am in the pursuit of truth no matter what it brings me, and I follow reason. Not blind faith as the christians do. No logic and reason will lead you to believe in an invisible sky dictator who had his son brutally murdered to satisfy his own vanity. There is no way you can compare the world-view of one who follows evidence and truth, vs one who follows FAITH, which means the absolute opposite, something that has no evidence, if you had evidence it wouldn't be called faith, and they wouldn't have to scare you with hell to believe it. The God hypothesis fails every time. It's not even sound enough to be called a theory!
ReplyDeleteChristians are not allowed to ask me where my conscience came from if you can't answer me where God came from... you keep committing the worst of logical fallacies. We don't need the supernatural to make us have a "conscious" ... where did God get his morals from? Where did his conscience come from? Don't you see... you are bringing more and more validity to the fact that we don't need any supernatural creator to know what's right and wrong, it evolved naturally b/c we wouldn't have survived without altruism and morals such as not killing each other and the like. Same with animals, even bats have morals... and your wicked bible says nothing about morality that "God" made for bats, or anything about their savior who taught them morals, how do you make that fit?
You are the one with the negative worldview. You think that christ is a dictator who's coming back to save people ONLY if they do exactly what he wants and live like he wants... that's not freedom, that's willful slavery that christians buy into. We aren't born sick, what a ridiculous notion... do you enjoy thinking that you are born sick and disgusting and "sinful" just b/c some retards upset a capricious God a long time ago? Do you REALLY believe this nonsense? Only the threat of hell could make a person do so. I sat in church one day and everyone was blaming themselves for this jew hanging on a cross who supposedly died for the sins that his OWN FATHER CONDEMNED us to. I saw through it right then, that these people have the mental disorder that is religion.
I can attack your morality, the so-called morals of the bible have caused more bloodshed than anything else. They were following the bible and "christ's word" and thinking that the rapture was coming... nonsense. There is nothing moral about the teachings of the bible, only lies, false promises, murder, guilt, and fear. "love one another" is sprinkled in there every once in a while, and you take that to be what jesus was about... and you claim that WE are the ones that are take stuff out of context? Anyone who thinks that others who don't believe in the meek and mild "savior" will be tortured forever is a wicked and delusional idiot, and I claim that right. Read that again... YOU THINK that BILLIONS will be tortured forever because they don't believe your beliefs, that are in your little box called christianity... no christian has the right to lecture anyone on morals. I certainly don't get my morals from the bible, and neither do you, if you did, you'd be in jail now for stoning people and unruly children. Take a step back and let go of fear and the fact that you think "god is watching you" or "testing you" ... and really think about this garbage. Just give it a try, if your faith is the TRUTH, then you will be lead back to it right?
If my morals had to come from "someone" then so did God's morals.
If you want to answer, that's fine. If not, here's my question.
Do you ever have SERIOUS doubts about the existence of a God? Or do you sometimes think some of the OTHER Gods may be the real one? If so, what kind of doubts do you have, why, and what do you do when you have them?
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ReplyDeleteSammy J-
ReplyDeleteok one of you two please fill me in so i dont have to read all that lol
We were just talking about the weather, right Charlie?
ReplyDeleteweather my rear end!seriously somebody get me up to speed here! i dont want to have to tackle information out of you charlie when i see you on monday!
ReplyDeleteHaha well how bout I get you up to speed Monday in person? You get your info, CharismaticRecluse doesn't have to explain anything, and I don't get attacked! Everybody wins!
ReplyDeleteI wasn't lecturing you on morals my friend, I was pointing out holes in your thinking so that maybe you would be more open to what I have to say; as you've been trying to do this whole time with me I might add. But that's all water under the bridge now, in answer to your question yes, I have had doubts more or less serious. As we live in a throughly secular culture in America, I have had more doubts about God's existense than other religions being true though. We are children of our own culture after all, and so I've had more exposure to atheism than other worldviews. What do I do? Pray, think, study, and ask others. I learn about the issue more. For instance your Horus thing. At first it seemed shattering, but upon reading further into it became less and less convincing. I don't run away from my beliefs at the first drop of a hat, neither do I ignore the issue altogether. Not that I'm guaranteed to solve it right away, but I continue to look into it.
Oh, and Sam I'm sorry to hear about your great great aunt, but joyous she knew who her saviour was! I'll be praying for you and your family though.
I've been paying for you too CharismaticRecluse, idk why I'm telling you that, it'll just make you mad I have a bad feeling, but know that I do care for you too.
Hi guys, my name's Laura and I'm a new administrator.
ReplyDeleteCharismaticRecluse, my question for you is, if you're not going to listen to our side of things then why even bother asking us questions if you're just going to keep giving us reasons why atheism is better? I know that's what debates are about, but usually a healthy debate is where both sides have open minds. I'm not trying to make you mad, I just think that either you are looking for a fight or you're looking for something more out of life by contacting us and wanting to discuss these issues.
I read what you wrote on another post about Adam and Eve. God gives us freewill, even though He does know that we will sin. He doesn't intend for us to be His puppets where He MAKES us do things. He wants us to learn for ourselves, just like any good parent would do. Sure, they can guide their children along the way, but eventually they're going to have to make their own decisions. I mean, you made the decision to become an atheist -- it's not like someone told you to become one.
Even though you probably won't want to hear this, I love you and so does Jesus. He's the best parent anyone could ask for because He continues loving us no matter what we've done wrong.
Well, you can pray all you want Charlie. I won't get angry, I have dozens of people who pray for me constantly who think I'm somehow "lost"... yet they believe a 2,000 year old zombie will come back to save them someday. It amazes me. I'M LOST? lol.
ReplyDeleteInstead of praying for me to change, I'd prefer that you gave me some evidence, I have yet to receive any.
That aside, It's your turn for a question... if Sammy wants to ask something, she can as well.
@Laura
ReplyDeleteYou are wrong. If I were you I would stop making assumptions about why I'm here or what I'm "looking for in life", or else you're only going to make yourself look even dumber than you do now.
It seems that you don't even know much about your own religion... the bible says that we are BORN in sin. It's laughable that you call him a "good parent" because what parent would say "follow my silly arbitrary rules, or else i'll send you to hell to be tortured forever"... some loving parent. This is a totalitarian dictatorship that can't be changed, why would he condemn you to the sin that HE made? This is all so ridiculous. You speak about this nonsense as if it's coherent in the least bit. Free will cannot exist under this God, I don't know if you will understand what I'm saying but i'll try, so listen up:
If God knows everything, and knows the future and all of that before he makes you, and he made everything in the world then there can be no free will, here's why: If he knows you will become president when you are 40, since the bible says God knows the future... then that means that you don't CHOOSE to, if you had a choice then the future would be unknowable. Since he knows... you are simply dancing on the strings of fate with no choice because it is a forgone conclusion. There is no escaping that fact. Either your God is not omnipotent and you do have free will, or he is and you don't. It's not such a difficult concept. Stop making excuses for your God, and argue rationally.
How do you love me? You don't, you are only saying this to please your God b/c you think you are going to heaven... stop it Laura. The thing is, if you didn't have all of these messed up beliefs you would probably be a lot better off, and wouldn't have to reject science in order for them to fit these old beliefs. Jesus loves me so much that he'd send me to hell for not wasting my life worshipping him? Following the rules of this dictator in the sky is not living, it is willful slavery, and there isn't a rag of truth to the bible.
I thought I was done ranting, but Laura, you asked for it.
Religion Poisons Everything.
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ReplyDeleteAnd one more thing Laura, I didn't contact you guys, you contacted me and asked me to join, wrong yet again.
ReplyDeleteLaura -
ReplyDeleteWell I didn't know that we contacted you because I am a new administrator.
Look, I'm sorry if I've upset you but I'm not going to be swayed in my beliefs. And maybe you won't either, but all I can do is pray for you. That's all I'm going to do, because you obviously won't listen to any of us.
Jesus loves you.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI am an atheist because there is no evidence for the existence of God. That should be all that needs to be said about it: no evidence, no belief. If you had any evidence, you wouldn't need to call it faith and meet every sunday to wallow in your filth and unworthiness and praise the bearded guy in sandals.
ReplyDelete"I do understand what love is, and that is one of the reasons I can never again be a Christian. Love is not self denial. Love is not blood and suffering. Love is not murdering your son to appease your own vanity. Love is not hatred or wrath, consigning billions of people to eternal torture because they have offended your ego or disobeyed your rules. Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that iscontingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being."
- Dan Barker, author of 'Godless: How an evangelical minister became one of America's leading atheists'.
That's love, not your fake, immoral, sick idea of love where blood and torture is used to scare people to believe this nonsense.
Sammy Jayne Speaking:
ReplyDeleteOKAY ENOUGH!!! all of you! i am going to make myself Clear on a couple new rules i am adding and ALL OF YOU (including my administrators)are going to follow them!
Rule#1:
NO ONE other then me has the authority to remove comments on this cite! if you think a certin comment was out of line you MUST contact me first and get my approval! although you are an administrator you did not creat this cite i did!
Rule#2:
I Want no bashing no arguing no cursing and no fighting. My cite has a very special purpose! it is for not only the other religions to learn about ours but for us to try and listen to get a better understaning on theres! this is a TWO sided cite. i have even been asked to add an athiest on as an administrator and im thinking deeply about concidering it.. this is supose to be a sort a peace contract. i want not only the other religions to learn from us but for us to learn about them as well. understand Laura and Charlie that this is a great opertunity for us to be able to polish our armer of God and become really great envangilists! thease people can teach us so much about evangilizing! we need to listen to them with open minds!
Rule#3: IT ENDS NOW!I will not have my cite trashed by arguments and fights. If you continue to keep this type of behavior up i will eithor bannish you from the cite or if you are an administrator i WILL change the password and not tell you. dont think that i wont. trust me i will! i hate to have to be this authoritive and call me tense and over-reacting but hey i want thease issues to end b4 we get more people on the cite!
I want answers from all of you!
AM I CLEAR?!
Ah good, I didn't know how you'd take it if I told you that. Thank you for not getting angry. This is Charlee btw.
ReplyDelete*Sigh* So much for not going on the attack mate. Actually, you can ask another question. You said
"I think i'll change my tone from now on and not go on the attack. I'm actually more interested in why you believe what you believe, not simply bashing it anymore b/c now you know where I stand. Give me some insight."
so I think it would make more sense for you to just keep asking me questions. I don't mind it if you don't.
Anyway, what's this about contacting you? I don't know either. Lol I'm not surprized I don't know, I'm only here to talk to people, I have no other administrative jobs. Did you have contact with Sam before this or something? Just curious. Til next time, adios!
I can't take it anymore...
ReplyDeleteSammy... it's SITE. With an S my dear.
Charlie, I was talking to your new administrator Laura, not you in the last few posts except for the one that's almost directly after what you said bud.
ReplyDeleteSo here's your question: What/who is God?
ok to answer your Q. charlie yes i contacted him b4 and asked him to come onto the cite.
ReplyDeleteCharismaticRecluse i apoligise for my administrators actions please do not leave the cite! yoou are a great contribution to it!
for me stay?
and dang... it is Site... idk how i ever Got into college...=/
ReplyDeleteCharlee is the author of and is responsible for the following post.
ReplyDeleteHey just wonderin' CharismaticRecluse, but what is your real first name? Oh and, correct me if I'm wrong Sam, but I don't think she minds if you remove your own posts, she thought someone else was removing your posts when she wrote that particular rule.
Alright this is an easy question for me in that I don't have to write anything, I can just send you to an online verizon of the Westminster Confession of Faith (It's basically a creed used by many reformed churches to describe our beliefs.) to the part that deals with who God is. Though it's not my writing, what it says in this section is what I believe concerning God. Here's the link:
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/
That's fairly general though, so if you want more specific stuff (both for me personaly and for details about God, though I don't claim to fully understand Him by any means.) ask about that. Adios!
Why is this God so immutable and ineffable, but it has such human emotions as anger, wrath, joy, sadness... all of these things. Why would this God care about what we eat, what days we work, if we cheat on our wives, who we sleep with and in what position? Doesn't this sound like a human invention to keep people in line? Why would the creator of the universe care only about us?
ReplyDeleteSecond question: What about the animals that we evolved from, does God give this same offer to other primate species? Please, do some research on evolution besides the christian propaganda sites, you'll see that it is a fact just like "germ theory"... so what happens to other animals? Do they go to heaven or hell?
Why not just let us live?
ReplyDeleteThis is Charlee. (wild applause)
ReplyDeleteWe are made in God's image, so of course we have the emotions He does, cept ours are tainted by sin now. God cares about us and has the right to influence our lives because He made us, we are His property. He loves us, even though He has the right to just destroy His whole creation because it is in rebellion against Him, its creator and sustainer. He cares about the whole universe, but we are His special creation, made in His own image.
No God does not offer the primates salvation, they don't have souls like human beings. We are the only part of God's creation He made in His own image, and a big part of that is having a soul. We didn't evolve from primates, they were made separate from us. Animals go neither to heaven nor hell, they just die, as they have no soul. That doesn't mean God doesn't care about them, He just made them with a different purpose than us.
I have done research on evolution and frankly it doesn't seem to even be faintly plausible to me. I'm sorry if that offends you, but that's what I've found.
Erm... why do you mention the germ theory? Just because one controversial theory proved to be true, doesn't prove that another controversial theory will be true. Or do you have a different reason for mentioning it?
What is your real first name btw? Just curious.
We are so special in his own creation... yet we're sinners?
ReplyDeleteHe loves us so much that he would send us to eternal torture just for disbelieving in him?
I am morally superior to your God. I wouldn't put someone through eternal torture just because they didn't follow my silly rules.
We are half of a chromosome away from a chimpanzee, that is a fact. We are really not so much different than other animals. You want to feel special, so the bible tells you that you have a soul and all of this other nonsense so that you can feel like you are above it.
Why do you have to eat everyday? Sleep? Just like all other animals do? There is NO EVIDENCE to show that when you die you go to heaven, just a silly old book that says you do. This is wish thinking and it's no different than a Muslim thinking he will get 72 virgins after killing infidels.
We humans ARE animals, we just die when we die like every other animal. You are not special, you are not made in the image of a supreme invisible dictator in the sky, you are an animal. There is no God that watches over the earth because such horrible things wouldn't happen otherwise. What if you get raped tomorrow? Would you STILL believe that it was part of God's plan? Or would you blame it all on Satan?
You clearly haven't looked at the evidence or done any real research on evolution. Your christian propoganda sites don't count. You are so skeptical and deny solid facts of science only so you can believe in ridiculous fairy tales about a bearded guy named jesus who came to save you from the sin that HE condemned you to originally. If heaven is such a great place, then why was dying on the cross a sacrifice at all? It wasn't. It's a laughable story that doesn't have a rag of truth to it.
I suggest instead of simply claiming to do research, you actually do some. If you really did the research you wouldn't still believe what you do. You've been told lies by your pastor and your family and other religious people about the world. You have been brainwashed into believing that you are the object of some divine plan. Every experiment done on prayer shows that it does not and has NEVER worked. Two hands working can do more than a thousand hands clasped in prayer.
You think that an invisible being created all this on his own, and he made man and woman out of dirt and blew life into them... yet you think that EVOLUTION isn't plausible? Hmmm. Didn't Adam and Eve's kids have to have sex with each other? Or did Adam and Eve have sex with their children? Think about that one...
I mention germ theory because it's a fact, and it's still called a theory. The only reason you don't deny germ theory is because it doesn't contradict the fairy tales in the bible. You deny evolution so that you can believe in things founded on NO intelligence, reason or science. There is no evidence for a God nor any of the claims of the bible, yet you have no problem believing in that. Why so hypocritical?
Call me Socrates.
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ReplyDeleteI have a question for all of you though, I don't care who answers.
ReplyDeleteIs there anything that can be demonstrated or shown... in other words, is there any quantum of evidence that could prove to you that God DOES NOT exist? What could disprove God to you?
"You clearly haven't looked at the evidence or done any real research on evolution. Your christian propoganda sites don't count. You are so skeptical and deny solid facts of science only so you can believe in ridiculous fairy tales about a bearded guy named jesus who came to save you from the sin that HE condemned you to originally."
ReplyDelete"I suggest instead of simply claiming to do research, you actually do some. If you really did the research you wouldn't still believe what you do."
How do you know I haven't looked into this? Do you know my life story? Is it because I found a different answer than you did? You're assuming I didn't actually try to look into it only because I got a different answer than you? What would you say if a scientist claimed another scientist's work was completely false because he got a different answer than himself, without even looking at his contemporary's research.
In answer to your question, I don't exactly know, I haven't set limits in my mind on what disproves my beliefs, but off the top of my head I suppose you'd have to prove everything right about a different worldview.
What does that even mean? Thats essentially saying that there is NOTHING that can prove to you that there isn't a God. That means even if it's the truth that there is no God you STILL won't believe it.
ReplyDeleteIf you did real research, you would see that evolution is a fact. The THEORY of evolution is a model of describing it... it is a fact that we evolved from lesser life forms. Adam and Eve are not FACTS and they aren't based on anything. I don't believe you when you say that you've done research because you seem to dislike only the science that shows your religion to be false, that's why. You want to find the smallest hole in scientific arguments to say they aren't true, yet you want to believe in complete nonsense that contradicts science for example the idea of God, or the idea that jesus is coming back someday to save you... this is all ridiculous nonsense. Or that God wrote a book to tell us how to live as his SLAVES or else we'll go to hell, that is NOT free will. You believe that, but you won't accept the fact of evolution. That's the problem.
Evolution is not a scientific fact. It has never been observed or recorded. People are desparate for it to be true (the alternative of God being real is too painful for them) so they've claimed it to be fact when it just doesn't work. Where did everything come from in the first place anyway? Did it just appear? How did life start? Why doesn't it just start all the time? Why don't we see any evolution or even any helpful mutations today? Where are all the missing links after all this time? How did a bird or anything evolve wings when a half wing would not be able to help it fly and would have no purpose, and so would be lost due to natural selection? How did complex systems that require all the parts to work evolve over time and in part? How did natural selection keep a bunch of useless parts that would slow the creature down until they finally had a purpose and were completed? How do you explain fossils of creatures from different time periods according to evolution sparated by thousands of years together? Why does everything in the universe follow the second law of thermodynamics, but life and genetic material get more complex rather than breaking down? How do you explain both sexes of a species evolving at the same time? Once again (this is the most obvious, gaping hole with the idea with the big bang and evolution in general), how does the big bang explain where everything came from in the first place? Is the universe just eternal? How do you explain that?
ReplyDeleteI know it's hard to hear all those attacks on your worldview but don't get mad and leave (you've been doing that the whole time with me and I've never threatened to leave), it just seems to me that you're just taking it for granted that you have all the details of life and everything nailed down.
After you reply (you can have the last word), we should take another break, what light and easy subject do you wanna discuss?
No, you're trying to flip the argument on me. I don't WANT evolution to be true, nor the big bang, I could care less. All I care about is truth. You are the one who surrenders to wish-thinking with your beliefs not based on evidence. If there was a God, i'd accept it. But no one has EVER offered any evidence for it, or any of the claims in the bible. Evolution is a fact, please look it up... even the OFFICIAL American Academy of Science says so. Our retinas are backwards, we are suceptible to disease and cancer, why do we die for no reason, why are some of us born de-formed, or not born at all born dead? You have to make that fit with your little God argument, there is nothing intelligently designed about the universe. No other planets have life, only ours that we know of, 98.9% of all life that has ever been on earth has now died out. There is no God, this universe exists just as it would if there were no God. If you understand science, biology and physics you will see that there is no need for a God for these things to arise, you, the religious still have all of your work ahead of you, and science is proving you wrong more and more everyday, and you have to retreat. The bible said the earth was flat, do you deny that it is too? Because of the bible?
ReplyDeleteThis all shows that we are imperfectly evolved, and the trial and error of natural selection hasn't finished yet, even with us.
You keep going back to the same tired old argument Charlie. Where did everything come from? The answer is I DON'T KNOW. But just because we don't know, that does not mean that we have to put God there as a cause... you still haven't told me where God came from. If everything had to have a cause... or come from somewhere, then God had to come from somewhere. You can't have it both ways, or your entire argument fails. And it does. Here's how it went... all physics and matter, then abiogenesis, then self-replicating cells, and evolution and natural selection takes care of the rest, if you understand these concepts it's easy to see how humans came about. It was a slow gradual process over many billions of years... no being just said POOF,,, Adam and Eve are here... you think he made them out of DIRT? That God came from NOTHING? Hmm, you seem to want to dismiss my argument b/c you think it had to have a first cause, yet you have no problem saying God didn't... I hope you can think objectively for a second and see the problem there. God is an extraordinary claim that you nor anyone else has ONE shred of evidence for, no proof... yet you still believe in it. You deny things WITH proof in order to believe in it... why? Fear? Conditioning? It's one of the two Charlie. Just do some research, no Christian websites please, just look at objective science and use reason... a supernatural ghost makes no sense. You can't talk about science with me when you believe in Jesus and all sorts of other things that CONTRADICT it. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth when doing so, please, sit back, and just think about it instead of denying it because you don't want to find out that there is no God.
I wasn't going to leave, I just don't see the point in debating, it's impossible when you don't want to argue rationally and logically, instead you are arguing using ridiculous bible stories. Your last post was okay, those are claims I can refute scientifically, but some of the others weren't put together logically like your last post was. No hard feelings. Refuting facts as you have done don't "hurt my feelings" because i'm not attached to them emotionally, I do dislike when people openly deny truth and fact in order to spread lies and mis-representations of what science REALLY says. I don't care where the evidence leads me, or where rationality leads me, as long as it leads to truth. No evidence = no belief. Where's your evidence, scientifically...? You've refuted some science, so now you have to use it to prove your God... your turn... (no need for a break, I'm not angry like you think I am).
I'm not saying a break cause either you or I are angry, I just get tired of serious discussion after awhile, all work and no play makes jack a dull boy. Break for fun? I'm gonna be gone next week anyway because I'm participating in a week long missions trip/service project.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you do for fun? What's your favorite color? Do you have any pets? Do you like art?
I do many things for fun, like reading or soccer or volleyball or just goofing off in various ways. My favorite colors are red and purple. I have a pet corn snake. I like art, and most kinds of art, but my favorite kind to make is painting, but I'm not really good at all.
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ReplyDeleteAlright.
ReplyDeleteLaura, dear Laura... or whomever it may concern...
ReplyDeleteWhat is the evidence for the existence of your God?