First of all, this is Charlee, back from my missions trip to Tiger Pause, filling in for Sammy J for reasons mentioned below.
This week's topic is religious tolerance, because it's the only thing that comes to my head. Have fun, be nice!
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This is Laura.
ReplyDeleteI believe everyone should be accepting of other religions, and willing to hear their beliefs, like we do on this site. If you feel strongly about your religion, then let me hear what you've got to say about it. I'm not going to force you to believe in mine -- just tell you what I believe in and why.
Everyone needs to be treated equally, and so in doing that being open minded is key. I know a lot of Christians who shove their beliefs in people's faces, which saddens me. We are supposed to be a people of love, not force.
Oh and CharismaticRecluse, this reminds me that I want to apologize for before when I was shoving my beliefs in your face. I didn't mean to, and I'm sorry for doing that. Please forgive me.
So, ehem, why do you believe what you believe?
ReplyDelete*Laura*
ReplyDeleteWhy do I believe what I believe? If I'm understanding what you're asking, you're probably looking for some sort of factual evidence. I can't give you any. The whole basis of Christianity is believing without any evidence. I believe that Jesus Christ saved me from eternal damnation, and I believe this because even without evidence I know it in my heart to be true. I just can't explain it the way you would like me to. Okay let me put it this way: God is like the wind. You know the wind is there because you can feel it, but you can't physically see it. That's how it is with God. I know He is there because I "see" Him working in my life. Your next question will probably be, how do I see Him? Well, for starters, the minute I turned my life around, I felt peace about everything in my life. I don't know if that really answers your question, but that's the best way I can describe it. You're probably not going to be happy with that answer though. :P
No. God is not like the wind. The wind has evidence and we can scientifically prove wind. Same as gravity.
ReplyDeleteTurning your life around and thinking that some invisible force is making you feel "at peace" is not evidence for a God, sorry to break it to you. You offer no evidence or good reason to believe what you believe. By the evidence you have presented it is just as likely that you believe in bigfoot and the flying spaghetti monster.
Do you understand that you can be fooled into believing in any religion that you are brought up in? If you were born in India you would think other god's were doing it, ones that are clearly different than jesus and the judeo-christian god that you believe in. By the slightest accident you happen to have been born into a christian family that indoctrinated you into these beliefs from a young age, so what choice did you have? If you had never been TOLD that there HAD to be a God... then you wouldn't believe in one, because it's both unnecesary and illogical.
*Laura*
ReplyDeleteThere is no evidence for God's existence -- that's the whole point of Christianity.
There is evidense for God but not 100% absolute evidense, you need faith and God to work in your heart as well. I don't have time now (volleyball!), but I'll be back!
ReplyDelete-Charlee
Charlee, you could make the same argument for the flying spaghetti monster then, you have just admitted that you believe for no real reason other than blind "faith". So how are we to debate something that is based on the subjective experience of a few? Such a thing cannot exist. Saying words like faith and work in your heart are not evidence, they are appeals to emotions. I care about what is true. If God was real there would be some evidence, faith wouldn't be necessary. Would the same thing that created you with reason and gave you science ask you to forgo all of them in order to believe? No no, it's all nonsense.
ReplyDeleteLaura... so why believe in God if it's not necessarily true? Wouldn't you want to find out how the world really is, using science and reason no matter where it takes you? The more we know about this world the better things are, instead of simply saying "oh, god did this", we actually investigate "miracles" and the myth of "creation" to find out that they are false?
If God knows everything that is going to happen ever... then how can you have free will? If God created you FOR something and knows the future, then free will can't exist. The future can't be known if free will exists, if it CAN be known... then you are merely dancing on the strings of fate, you never made a decision in your life, you were simply god's compute program. You can't hide behind "oh, well God works in mysterious ways, there's no way for us to know"... that doesn't make sense and its not useful, it gives no answers and only further solidifies the fact that your God cannot exist since you have to make special exceptions that you wouldn't make for anything else in order to believe.
*Laura I may have been a little harsh on you before. Good to have you back though.
Like Charlee said, it takes faith too.
ReplyDeleteNo, I don't care about your science and reason. I mean, I'm interested in how the world works, but I know enough about the world to get by, and with what I don't know, God will provide for me. I know it's hard for you to understand because you don't understand faith. And faith isn't something you can explain, you understand it based on experience.
- Laura
You are not interested in science and reason? If we went by the bible then we would still believe the earth is flat!! How ignorant can you be? No, I understand faith, it's simply brainwashing to get you to believe in riduculous nonsense that there is NO evidence for, why is there no evidence? Because it's all made up. You don't understand it based on experience, and if you think you do then you have a disorder called schizophrenia. If you can't give me any evidence, then you are no different than a drunken redneck that says you just need "faith" in order to believe him when he says aliens kidnapped him up in their mothership. You are no different, why don't you get that?
ReplyDeleteScience is the reason you have a computer to type on right now. Nothing from the bible, no mythical fairytales and crazy shit happening and stories of your relatives "partying in heaven with jesus" and magical places underground called hell... it's childish and if you believe in that stuff then you can be made to believe ANYTHING. Dont go to the doctor the next time you get sick, and tell all of your relatives never to go and if they are there tell them to leave and go home and just PRAY if you think your god is so wonderful and powerful. But you wont do that because you really deep down know there is no God. Or else you would just "trust in him" all of the time and not doctors who use SCIENCE that you don't like... why dont you try that and we will see how much you believe in god then laura, all it does is prove that you are an atheist like me, the only difference is that you don't have the courage to admit it because you are brainwashed and afraid of going to hell.
ReplyDeleteAs promised, Charlee is back. About the 100% prove thing, my point was you can't convince someone to believe in Christ by pure logic, because by nature after the fall we human beings hate God. Our fallen natures are so corrupt that they can not and will not accept God. There were people who saw his miracles and knew He was raised from the dead and yet didn't believe, so even with ridiculously ovibious proof people, even Israelites who believed in God in the first place even, will not believe. How does anyone believe then, you ask (or not, but I'm gonna say anyway)? The only way we can accept God is if He works in our hearts and changes our natures, He replaces our wickedness with Christ's righteousness. Christ fulfilled God's wrath for us, so His absolute justice is still upheld.
ReplyDeleteOh, and the evidenses, once again, for God are creation, God's word, the testimony of the apostles and other Christians, history (you can deny Christ all you want, but we've already been over this), personal experiences, and the witness of the Holy Spirit. My point though is even if God came down with a banner from the sky that said "I'm real!" people still wouldn't believe if God didn't change their hearts. No one comes to God unless God first calls Him, because our evil natures don't allow us to. Now you're going to say this means no free will, and that we're just God's robots, but this is not the case. We make our own choices, but we always choose based upon our nature, and our nature is utterly corrupt, so we will never choose God or anything that is right. Even things that we think are good and others around us think are good are tainted. God changes our natures so that we do have good in us, Christ's righteousness. That way we can choose what is righteous. It's not an overnight process however, we still have our sinful nature in our body dragging us down while we're still in this world. Same thing with the original sin, God made man and gave him free-will and a neutral state concerning evil, man chose to fall into sin, making him resposible for it, not God. You can blame God for designing man with the ability to choose, but that wouldn't make sense cause then you'd want Him to make you a robot with no choice at all. And anyway, who are we to judge God's decisions? We are His property, His creation, who are we to call God out if He designed some of His creation for long-suffering wrath (meaning that His wrath is long and patient in coming) so that the riches of His glory and mercy would be made known to those He designed for mercy? This isn't my own idea, this comes from Romans 9 in the Bible, so this isn't just my own personal view for my own gratification.
I know we've been over this before, actually this is basically all you and I've ever talked about. You're obviously very interested in this particular thing though, so discuss further we shall.
Oh, and sorry Evie, I couldn't keep from writing, I'll let you have the next one.
Oh, and bout the going to the doctors proves you don't believe in God thing; God made us as physical beings with physical problems that there are physical answers to, so going to the doctors only shows you recognise that God designed your body rationally so that we can fix the problem sometimes thanks to the wonderful minds He gave us. Because you believe in God doesn't mean you deny the wonderful, beautiful world He designed for us or the things in it, quite the opposite!
ReplyDeleteOh, and- haha, no really, I'm done!
ReplyDelete*Laura*
ReplyDelete"If God hadn't chosen me, I would not have chosen Him." - Charles H. Spurgeon
Oh, one more thing. CR, back in Bible times the Israelites didn't have any doctors like we have today, so literally all they would do is pray to be healed. Ever heard of Jesus raising the dead? Healing the lepers? God healed them because of their faith and their prayers. There were no doctors, just faith. In this present day and age I'm sure that would work the same. Faith does not change over time even if we have doctors now to tell us what medicines to take.
ReplyDeleteI can appreciate science and the beautiful world that God created, but I don't "believe" in it wholeheartedly. I don't believe in evolution and that is part of science. I don't put all my trust in it so that when a scientist discovers something new, my opinions sway.
If I prayed 24/7, God would surely hear me and heal me. Perfect example: "If you diligently heed the voice of the LORD your God and do what is right in His sight, give ear to His commandments and keep all His statutes, I will put none of the diseases on you which I have brought on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you." (Exodus 15:26)
-Laura
Impressive... it seems that when im gone you three tend to get along much better...hmmm..? lol are you trying to tell me somthing? lol
ReplyDeleteyes Laura its good to have you here CharismaticRecluse you too.
so things got a little interesting while i was away?
--<3 Sammy J
oh and charlie i didnt mean to leave you out we love having you with us as well!
ReplyDeleteLaura, you are once again talking nonsense. All of this crap about God doing it all for you... did you wake up and dress yourself this morning? Brush your teeth? Do your parents work? If you did any of those things then you KNOW prayer doesn't work. If you really thought it worked you would just pray for everything you want to get done, but you know that is not possible. The only time prayer "works" is if it would have happened anyway. Why do you enjoy feeling so sick and sinful? We aren't born in any sin or evil or "hating" some invisible thing. If I told you to just accept the flying spaghetti monster into your heart and quoted you a bunch of lines frmo a silly book written about it... you wouldn't believe... but you believe in this crap that makes no sense that there is NO evidence. for. Charlee, you say 100% proof as if there is even 1% proof for your God. You are no different than a caveman praying to a rock, point out the difference between you and the muslims too... you are all the same, you have crazy beliefs that none of you can prove. You believe in germs but not evolution. You only say that because it doesn't fit in with your FLAT EARTH book. This is why I say Christianity makes you dumber, because it does. Laura, Sammy, Charlee, it has made you all dumber. You have your simple little explanation "God made all of this for me and the world revolves around me and miracles happen to save me and he answers my little prayers even though other people pray for the OPPOSITE"... there are muslims praying for your death everyday... it doesn't happen. You pray to your god for anyones death and it WONT HAPPEN. Anything you pray for wont happen unless it was going to happen anyways.
ReplyDeleteWhat don't you get about this charlie: If God made the whole world... knowing what would happen then he made man KNOWING he would "fall from grace" and "sin" and all sorts of crap... your God is responsible for it because if the future can be known by God then you CANT have free will, are you not smart enough to understand that concept? Seriously, if you can't understand that let me know. It's probably that you are afraid to realize that what i'm saying makes sense, your world would be shattered if you accepted the fact that there is no God and it scares you to death. But no, you won't accept the truth, you want to believe lies so that you can go to heaven... pure insanity, all of you.
How can we argue about something that you say I have to ASSUME exists before I can believe it? Why should I assume that a God exists in order to prove it? That's ridiculous. You might as well believe in the flying spaghetti monster that created the universe... tell me ONE thing about that which is different than your God... the bible is fiction.
ReplyDeleteWhy won't you accept the flying spaghetti monster into your heart and have a relationship with him? I swear he touched me with his noodly appendage. You were born hating him... you are sinful and you must eat spaghetti every night or else you are sinful and will go to noodle hell! To be tortured by meatball demons forever!
ReplyDeleteThat is NO different than the bible stories, why don't any of you fools see that?
First of all, please don't turn this into a fight again.
ReplyDeleteSecond, if you don't like what we're saying, then why do you stick around? If you think we're so insane, then why do you continue to talk to us? You're obviously here for some reason -- I just can't figure it out because all you do is argue with us.
We never said everything revolves around us, please don't put words into our mouths.
Yes, God knew that Adam and Eve would sin, but He wanted us to make our own choices. I know, look where that got us. We're really stupid. He didn't want to control us like little puppets. He puts faith in us because He created us and everything He creates is good.
-- Laura
"All you do is argue with us"
ReplyDeleteIsn't that the fucking point???
Yes, you do think everything revolves around you because to believe in miracles and prayer, you think that the natural laws, which affect EVERYONE change to favor you or your loved ones. It is arrogant and insane.
What gives you the idea that God created everything?
Other than the fact that you ignore the fact of evolution and other principals that are true in order to believe that some all-powerful dictator could always just exist and come from nothing... hmm so the all powerful dictator came out of nowhere... but gives us a sloppily written book that says the EARTH IS FLAT to tell us about him. It's a book of fiction.
What you said could be summed up as
"The flying spaghetti monster knew that the noodles he created would sin, but he wanted them to make their own decisions. You said "we are stupid"... no, the christians are because they believe they are born in sin and owe something to some invisible dictator with NO EVIDENCE for it's existence. So speak for yourself, not the sane people. The flying spaghetti monster didn't want to control his noodles like puppets, he puts faith in his noodles because HE (the flying spaghetti monster) created all of the noodles and all the plants and animals... oh, and he made an entire universe with no life out there, but somehow forgot to put it in his silly old book that has things in it that have been PROVEN wrong." The flying spaghetti monster reveals himself through nature, see? Just accept him into your heart and you can believe that a FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER made the universe and loves you and answers your prayers. That is what you sound like Laura... you haven't yet told me how your beliefs are ANY different, I think it might be because you know they are the same.
Your God and jesus = the flying spaghetti monster and bigfoot. Why don't you worship the flying spaghetti monster instead? Just accept it into your heart!
You don't like the truth very much... because you only accept science when it's convenient... but here is the truth: When you die, you die. Nothing happens. All of your relatives that die, and all of them that will die just die. There is no heaven for the "good" people partying with some mythical idiot named Jesus, and there is no "hell" where the big bad non believers go, or anyone else. When you and every other christian dies, you go to the same place as Hitler... NO WHERE. You don't float up to the sky when you die, thats just some shit they tell you to make you feel better when your relatives die. No one is partying in heaven, prayer is only a way to make you feel like you are helping when you are only sitting on your ass talking to yourself. No one is out there. If there was, you would have some PROOF. But no, you don't have any... none that can't be said about the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER too.
ReplyDeleteWhoa, hold up there mate. I don't think either Laura or I where yelling at you, so why do you always start ranting? Sarcastic tones, foul language, insults, and general anger add nothing to your argument so why put them in there? They only make you look ornery and crass. This discussion is ruined because you couldn't keep your cool, so please try to remain civil in the next discussion.
ReplyDelete-Charlee
Shut up.
ReplyDeleteI forcefully asked you questions and made comparisons that you couldn't answer. Don't be upset because you have no evidence for your God.
ReplyDeleteShut up? Really? I'd expect that from a 6th grader, not someone your age or even my own. I'm sorry, but I'm done talking to you until you can act like an adult and discuss in a reasonable manner. I've already answered your points already, but you never accept my answers and just say "No, you're wrong!" then bring up the same issue in a similar manner later and then get mad when I answer the same way again.
ReplyDeleteI'm willing to discuss, and I really mean discuss not rant about, things with you, but until I see that you're done acting in this manner, I'm afraid that I'm just going to let you rant to yourself.
I'm really disappointed and sad I have to do this, but there's no point going on like this. I'm not interesting in a flame war with you. I hope you can see that won't do anything good as well.
I don't have a problem with religion until the religious ones try to force it on to others. Being it public schools, government, or even the mormons at my front door. Just keep it in your homes and at your church.
ReplyDelete